Black Widow
08-18-2007, 06:49 PM
By JOEL ROSS and SIMON 'LILSBOY' ROTHSTEIN
August 17, 2007
Below is a transcript of WWE superstar Ken Kennedy talking about drugs and death in the wrestling business.
He is chatting to Radio 1 DJ Joel Ross and Simon 'LilsBoy' Rothstein, The Sun's wrestling correspondent.
You can hear the full 45 minute Podcast - in which Ken chats about all aspects of the wrestling business - by Clicking Here. (http://del.interoute.com/?id=9782474d-cad2-4959-8228-63da772f7fbb&delivery=download)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joel: With the Benoit situation, obviously they (the WWE) put you out there because you're intelligent…
Ken: They didn't put me out there, I put myself out there actually. Nobody told me to do anything.
In fact, I called Stephanie McMahon at home one day after watching 'Nancy Dis-Grace' and a couple of other shows like that.
Entertainment news, "info-tainment" shows I call them. After I'd watched a bunch of them I was just about ready to throw stuff through my television screen, I wanted to jump in there and phone in, tell them: "What are you guys doing?"
I called Stephanie and I said: "Stephanie, can I please, can I write something on my website? Can I please write something?"
And she said: "You know what, we're asking all talent, at this time, don't say anything. It's a no-win situation, no matter what you do they are going to twist it and spin it, we would rather just have you not say anything at all at this time. "
And then the very next day I went to TV and Vince came out and he said: "We've thought about it, and if you guys want to talk to somebody, if you want to talk to the media, if you want to write a blog, feel free.
"Just please tell the truth, and if you don't know about something, just don't talk about it. If you don't know your facts, please don't talk about it."
I thought about it for a week or two, and I watched a 'Nancy Dis-Grace' episode, like three times in a row. They had it on repeat one night.
They had Superstar Billy Graham, Marc Mero and the widow of Johnny Grunge on TV and I remember just being so disgusted.
I went to the Internet and one of my best friends in the business, Gregory Helms, had just written a very scathing blog, and it just kind of inspired me to go ahead and write.
I was up at 3.30 in the morning until about 5am just writing that blog and I don't know if you saw it or not. It was on Ken-Kennedy.com.
Simon: You could tell you were quite angry.
Ken: Yeah, and that got a lot of publicity, negative and otherwise.
I was contacted by Nancy, to go on her show and I was contacted by Dan Abrams as well Greta Van Susteren, which was the one that I did
Simon: Did you not want to go on Nancy's show?
Ken: No, just because I knew it was a forum that, I looked at it as a no-win situation. It was going to be heavily stacked on one side and if you watched when Fit Finlay was on there, I think he said they turned his mic down.
Joel: Yeah, so if he wanted to butt in there would be nothing coming out.
Simon: There are some valid problems though, there are a lot of guys that have died.
Ken: Definitely, I'm not saying that there's no problems.
One of the things is we come off, sometimes, as being very (defensive) - Jim Ross had a word for it, I can't remember it off the top of my head.
But, we do have problems in the wrestling business.
(Actually) I'd say we did have problems, because I honestly, and I'm not just saying this, I don't think we have those problems any more.
And if you look at the list of guys that have passed away, they are all from that era where there was a rock star type of party atmosphere in the business.
Most of the guys that have passed away hadn't been with the WWE for five, six, seven (years), some of them hadn't even stepped in a WWE ring.
Simon: I think it's a general problem in the wrestling industry…
Ken: I don't think it's a problem in the wrestling industry, I think it's a problem in the world.
There's a drug problem throughout the world, there's definitely a drug problem in Hollywood, there's a drug problem in the music industry.
Simon: USA Today did a study and they found that wrestlers are more likely to have a heart attack before 50 - twelve times more likely. So there is (an issue).
Ken: Yeah, but again go back to that list of these so-called lists of wrestlers that have died prematurely and, not to take anything away and say there's nothing to these five deaths, but there were five deaths that happened in the WWE.
Owen Hart, which was an accident. Chris Benoit, which was an apparent suicide. Russ Haas, who had a heart condition that he was born with. Eddie Guererro, who had years and years and years of drug abuse and if you talk to anybody, including himself at the time, if you watch his DVD he says himself he should have been dead a long time ago.
Joel: Well he crashed a car as well, and he was like you know "it left me for dead".
Ken: And the other one was.
Simon: Pillman.
Ken: Brian Pillman. OK, and he had a drug problem, definitely. You know, a lot of these guys that are dying, probably would have had drug problems had they not been in the WWE.
Simon: I look at the guys I grew up loving - British Bulldog was a big hero of mine, Mr Perfect Curt Hennig, Ravishing Rick Rude…
Ken: He (British Bulldog) took so many steroids, he probably took steroids enough for 20 men.
Simon: The painkillers were also a problem.
Ken: Painkillers and drugs.
There was a thing I remember hearing something that, when he (Bulldog) was in WCW, they had brought back the Ultimate Warrior, they didn't tell anybody about it, they had a trap door in the ring.
He took a fall on the hinge and shattered one of his vertebrae and instead of getting taken care of, he just took massive amounts of painkillers.
Joel: Well, I think that's a normal life, though. If I've been out and I've been drinking, and I've got the headache from hell, I'm taking four or five pills. That's the way you look at it.
If you're doing that every day and physically beating up your body…
Ken: One of the things about our business is that we tend to think that we're invincible.
"I can take that stuff and it's not going to affect me."
It's years and years and years of using that stuff and abusing that stuff, that builds up.
Simon: Back in the day, Hulk Hogan famously went on Arsenio Hall and said he didn't take steroids, and all those (era stars) said they never did it, it was only Superstar Billy Graham and that they were all clean.
I spoke to Hogan last week, he now says he did it every day for 16 years.
This is the worry that fans have, we love you guys and don't want to see any more deaths. The worry we have is, people are now saying its clean, but is it?
Ken: Well, here's the deal.
I was on Greta Van Susteran and the guest host asked me "do you take steroids?"
I don't take steroids. I have taken steroids in the past.
I read some Internet reports that people were mad that I said that I didn't take steroids.
Joel: You're being very honest about it, would you not get heat from Vince and stuff?
Ken: Honest to God, Vince said "Be honest. Tell the truth. We don't have anything to hide."
And the thing is, I did take steroids.
I never took a lot of steroids, but when I was working the independent scene I was trying everything I could.
I never took massive amounts of steroids and do you know why I stopped taking them?
Because of the (WWE's) Wellness Policy.
Because they instituted the Wellness Policy and I knew that having a job with the WWE was way more important than the 10 pounds of extra muscle that the steroids gave me.
I stopped taking them and I had the biggest push of my life.
I worked with The Undertaker for the last six, seven months. Working on top of all the house shows. I worked PPVs, I was on every PPV.
I didn't take any steroids and that's the thing, nowadays, in our business, you don't have to take that stuff in order to get a push.
You just don't have to. Guys like, the big guys like Bobby Lashley guys like John Cena.
John Cena, swears up and down and I agree with him, I believe him. He's got no reason to the boys.
Joel: Him and Lance Storm…
Ken: Have never taken an ounce of steroids in their life. He's just got good genetics. If you look at him, he's got, his muscle bellies are so big, he's just a genetic freak, and that's the thing.
We've got thousands upon thousands upon thousands of applicants every year, that apply to have a job as a WWE superstar and Vince picks the best of the litter, he picks the guys that have very good genetics.
Look at Bobby Lashley, look at a picture of him from when he was.
Joel: In the army.
Ken: In the army or whatever, he was a big guy then. He is just bigger now because he changed up his eating and his workouts.
Joel: We're seeing people on the TV - Lex Luger, The Ultimate Warrior, Lanny Poffo for God's sake.
Ken: Guys that were considered to be the biggest jokes inside the industry, in and out of the ring.
Joel: Absolutely, And bearing in mind a lot of these TV shows don't know anything about the business.
Ken: And a lot of the people that watch the shows don't know anything about the business.
They look at it and say "that guys an idiot". I read a transcript of the interview that Lanny Poffo had and it was…
Joel: I swear, you've got to watch it, get it on YouTube, I swear you've got to watch it.
Ken: It was one of the funniest things that I've read. I was comedy, it was like a comedy hour.
Joel: He was the Genius.
Simon: A guy like Marc Mero, his heart does seem to be in the right place. He has wrestled a lot of guys that have died.
Ken: And there's another situation too where I would say, honestly, that if the guy truly cared about changing the business, if I truly felt he cared about changing the business, I would commend that. I would say that's a good thing.
And yeah, definitely, changes could be made in the business to make it better and changes are in the works right now.
The people in (WWE headquarters) Titan Towers right now are trying to figure out ways that they can help us out to live better lives and be healthier and things like that.
But if you look at Marc Mero's history and you look at his past, things point to a very different agenda, and that is that, I think, that Marc Mero wants to have a little more TV time, wants to get into politics, and this is a great, great stepping stone for that and its unfortunate that he's misinformed.
Who does he talk to inside the wrestling business today to get his information?
He's relying on information that he had from nine years ago when he was in the business.
Two years ago it was a completely different business than it is now.
After Eddie died, things changed drastically in the WWE.
That's not to say that things were crazy or that everybody was doing drugs and stuff like that but its definitely changed a lot, the attitude has changed over the past two years, let alone the past five or 10 years.
Marc Mero was in the business nine years ago, and he goes on these talk shows and he says: "I walked away with three years left on my deal, I was so disgusted with everything."
That's a crock, and everybody knows it, because here's the deal.
He had a girlfriend that was very hot, started bringing her to all the wrestling shows, her name was Rena, he got married to her, and people said: "Hey, this girls really hot, we could make her a superstar".
And she became a bigger superstar than he could have ever even imagined and turned him from Marc Mero or Johnny B Badd to carrying Sable's bags in and out of the shows.
They had a falling out, and the reason that he walked away wasn't that he was disgusted with the business, it's because he was disgusted by the fact that he had to look at her every day.
Simon: Just to stand up for Mero, because I interviewed him recently, I put these criticisms to him. He's a millionaire from wrestling.
Ken: OK.
Simon: He's not bitter, he won titles although he wasn't Stone Cold Steve Austin. But the fact is he's wrestled 27 guys that have died.
Ken: OK, and out of the 27 guys that have died. The list is impressive enough, without him having to pad it with guys who died form plane crashes and automobile crashes.
Junkyard Dog died in an automobile accident, Owen Hart died because he fell from a ceiling.
Those are two names that are on that list.
What he's trying to do is he's trying to change the business and say that the business needs to be changed because all these people are dying because of the business, but those people aren't dying because of the business.
Simon: But a lot of the guys on his list, Big Boss Man, Curt Hennig, a lot of the guys we've mentioned (did)…
Ken: Yes, correct.
Simon: Looking at that list, with the majority of the guys there seem to have been drug problems there.
Ken: Right.
I could see it if he were calling up guys and saying: "Hey, man, let me talk to you, let me get a feeling for what it's like nowadays."
But he doesn't.
He just goes: "Oh, back in the day, we used to take Somas all the time, so everybody in the WWE must be taking Somas like candy now."
Joel: It's fine testing the guys for steroids, growth hormone, whatever, do you think it should there should be testing for mental issues there?
If I'm talking to you right now… I was talking to Chris Benoit three months ago, he was one of the loveliest guys I'd ever met in that very short time.
Ken: You could not tell that he'd got problems.
Joel: I could not tell that he'd got mental problems there.
Ken: OK, and neither could anybody else.
Joel: I'm speaking to you right now, and as soon as you leave, it'll be like "Ken Kennedy, what a great guy" but you may have issues.
Do we need to be testing you?
Ken: You know, I think everyone handles stress differently and Chris was one of those guys that internalized everything.
You could see it. Especially after the death of Eddie, you could tell, I could definitely see a difference in Chris and I used to ask him "are you alright, man?"
Because I used to see him and he had that thousand yard stare, he just looked like he wasn't happy, and I remember I used to call him 'Cyborg' because the pain that that man would endure in a workout, or in the ring, was amazing, It was like no human being could do that.
I remember I came on an overseas tour with him one time and he got me into doing squats and he would tell me "yeah, I do 300-500 squats every day" he said "today you're going to do squats with me".
I did 200 and the next day my legs were just fried. He said, "alright, we're going to do some more squats" and I said "I don't know if I can do more squats, man" and he said: "I'm telling you man, you just push through, mentally, you can do it, you can do it. Just tell yourself you can do it."
So I ended up doing 300 squats that day.
The next day he said "we're going to do more squats" and I'm like "Oh my God", so we ended up doing 400 and the next day I did 500 squats.
By the time I did 500 squats my legs actually started feeling better.
He was that type of guy.
I tell you, when he came back, from having that time off, because took like maybe six months off, just because of the burnout of everything, he had lost three close friends.
That was something he never talked about, and everybody knew that he had lost Eddie, but nobody had known about the other two guys that he had lost.
When he came back, I could just see a difference in his attitude.
He wouldn't stay out at night with the guys if we were overseas. He would go up to his room.
Normally he was the one that would be down there, leading all the guys until five or six o'clock in the morning and then get up at ten o'clock and be ready to train.
Joel: Do some more squats.
Ken: Yeah, do some more squats and stuff. He had changed and I could see it. I used to ask him "man, are you ok?" and he'd be "yeah, I'm fine."
Joel: Met the guy a few times, it really shook me up mentally, because not only was he in my top five wrestlers of all time, he was such a nice man, and every single person who you have seen on TV or the radio has said exactly the same thing.
And you never know exactly what's inside there. That was my point.
It's great testing for steroids and whatever, but was it the mental thing?
Ken: I think everybody would like to wrap it up in a nice little ball and say 'this is what it was' but I think there are so many different things that factor in the reason why he did what he did that we'll never know.
Did it have something to do with wrestling? Probably.
But it had a lot to do with other things too.
I remember one of the things, I remember having a conversation with him, right before WrestleMania 22 in Chicago, we went to have a workout, and we were driving, and he kind of opened up to me a little bit, he asked me some stuff, and I remember him asking me "do you take recreational drugs?" and I said "no, I don't do anything".
I said "do you?" and he said "yeah, from time to time".
So I said what are you going to do with this Wellness Policy, and he's like: "I don't know, I'm going to have a hard time with it."
I remember also having him say to me: "I'm going to have to work the rest of my life because of my lazy, 'expletive-deleted' of an ex-wife took everything from me, and I'm going to have to work the rest of my life."
I know that was a huge, huge issue with him.
Joel: He'd worked so hard all his life anyway and he's 40.
Ken: Right, he'd worked his ass off.
Simon: Just one question on the Wellness Policy, to go back to this, but with Benoit, he was beating it somehow, either with dodgy prescriptions or somehow it seems, because we know his doctor was prescribing him ten months of steroids every three to four weeks.
Ken: And when he came back, I could tell he was off of everything and just talking to him, he wouldn't even take ephedrine, he hadn't taken any ephedrine, and I don't know he had let that go and gone clean for so long and then just decided to take stuff again.
I'm going to assume that's what happened because we have our Wellness Policy in place, and as much as everybody wants to say its just a 'wink, wink, nod, nod' type of policy they stand and watch you…
Joel: Take a piss.
Ken: Yeah. I got drug tested last week, they just sit there and watch you do it.
Simon: There is this thing (loophole) where you (can) have a prescription for hormone replacement, would you like to see that tightened up?
Ken: You know what, I think that there is a, for some people, in some instances, a reason for it.
If you do any research on steroids, steroids are actually good for you, in very small doses.
It's just that people say: "Well if I take this little tiny amount then it does this for me, what would happen if I took 10 times that amount?'
And you obviously know what happens when people take large quantities.
Joel: I'm like that with drink, you know, I'm being serious, if I'm really open about it, watching the Eddie Guererro DVD the other night, I'm like that, if I have one drink, I want two drinks, I want three drinks…
Ken: You want 10.
Joel: I like that feeling and it's like how much more can I have. I've got quite an addictive personality, so it's a little bit like that.
Ken: I believe that we do have guys on our roster who are ageing and, in small doses, testosterone replacement is sometimes necessary.
But the massive amounts that doctor was prescribing that's ridiculous and that doctor is basically a glorified drug dealer.
Things like that need to go away.
But if a guy's taking a little bit of testosterone, if he's prescribed a healthy dose, and he takes that, I don't see any problems with that.
Our drug policy can be compared to the NFL's drug policy.
There's a 4:1 testosterone to epitestosterone level, and anything higher than a 4:1 you get red flagged.
If you can produce a reason why your testosterone levels are higher than 4:1 then they will let it slide.
But the thing is that we're not a competitive sport.
In most cases where guys are taking stuff, there is a legitimate medical reason, and that is why people say 'you can have up to a 10:1 ratio' which is a bunch of garbage, because anything higher than a 4:1, you get flagged, and you better have a damned good reason why your levels are higher than 4:1.
I'll tell you, Dr. David Black came in - the guy that runs the policy, that instituted our drug policy, and instituted the NFL's drug policy - came in, we all had a sit down, pow-wowed with him for probably two hours, anybody had any questions we bounced them off of him, and he said that he has actually run into people who have had a natural level of testosterone that was like 8:1, naturally without taking any kind of supplements.
Everybody's testosterone levels are different, and some guys just naturally produce a lot more testosterone than others.
So, are you going to say, this guys tests 8:1 because he's a genetic freak, so you're obviously taking steroids, so things like that, we have to have that in place.
Because, again, we are not a competitive sport, so to speak, you're not going to get an edge, you're not going to win a match because you're taking testosterone or whatever.
Joel: You talk intelligently, and I think that's why you're the right guy to go on the TV, you wanted to go on the radio and actually explain it to me in layman terms, about this is how it works, so cheers for that. Thank you.
Ken: We have a zero tolerance policy. In fact I know of a guy, I'm not going to name his name, but I know a guy, a friend of mine, who was taking an over-the-counter supplement from GNC.
It was like a testosterone enhancer or whatever. I've taken stuff like that before and I've thought 'this is just garbage, it doesn't work'.
Well he took that stuff, and he got tested, and he actually tested positive for his testosterone levels were elevated, and they said "what are you taking?" and he said "I'm taking this" and they said "nope, you can't take that, that's on the banned list you're not allowed to take this".
Joel: But you can buy it over the counter.
Simon: The banned list is very long. I've seen it, it's a very long list.
Ken: Stuff like that, to me, is ridiculous because…
Here's the problem with the drug policy, you know this from every walk of life, that the people who have problems, who are abusers of drugs, will find ways, will find loopholes, no matter what.
They will always figure out how they can get away with taking drugs.
Some of them will even go as far as getting fired for taking drugs just because it's so important to them, they can't stop.
If I'm working a match, in, say France, and I take a bad fall and I hurt my back very badly and I'm in a lot of pain and I don't have a prescription, so to speak, and there isn't a doctor on staff, I can't go to my buddy, who I know has a prescription of Vicodin and say: "Man, can I get a pill or two so I can make it through the night, so I can sleep?"
I can't do it, because if I happen to get tested, then I will test positive for that and I will be suspended for 30 days, or 60 days.
Stuff like that, there's just no tolerance at all if you have one Vicodin in your system, and you don't have a prescription for it, you're suspended - period, point blank.
You know, they always say that one bad apple spoils the whole damn bunch, and that's the truth, it really is because there's guys out there who don't abuse, who can use stuff occasionally, and they're the ones that are getting punished because of these guys who have to take stuff for you, for you, for me, for everybody else.
They take the required amount for 10 men.
August 17, 2007
Below is a transcript of WWE superstar Ken Kennedy talking about drugs and death in the wrestling business.
He is chatting to Radio 1 DJ Joel Ross and Simon 'LilsBoy' Rothstein, The Sun's wrestling correspondent.
You can hear the full 45 minute Podcast - in which Ken chats about all aspects of the wrestling business - by Clicking Here. (http://del.interoute.com/?id=9782474d-cad2-4959-8228-63da772f7fbb&delivery=download)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Joel: With the Benoit situation, obviously they (the WWE) put you out there because you're intelligent…
Ken: They didn't put me out there, I put myself out there actually. Nobody told me to do anything.
In fact, I called Stephanie McMahon at home one day after watching 'Nancy Dis-Grace' and a couple of other shows like that.
Entertainment news, "info-tainment" shows I call them. After I'd watched a bunch of them I was just about ready to throw stuff through my television screen, I wanted to jump in there and phone in, tell them: "What are you guys doing?"
I called Stephanie and I said: "Stephanie, can I please, can I write something on my website? Can I please write something?"
And she said: "You know what, we're asking all talent, at this time, don't say anything. It's a no-win situation, no matter what you do they are going to twist it and spin it, we would rather just have you not say anything at all at this time. "
And then the very next day I went to TV and Vince came out and he said: "We've thought about it, and if you guys want to talk to somebody, if you want to talk to the media, if you want to write a blog, feel free.
"Just please tell the truth, and if you don't know about something, just don't talk about it. If you don't know your facts, please don't talk about it."
I thought about it for a week or two, and I watched a 'Nancy Dis-Grace' episode, like three times in a row. They had it on repeat one night.
They had Superstar Billy Graham, Marc Mero and the widow of Johnny Grunge on TV and I remember just being so disgusted.
I went to the Internet and one of my best friends in the business, Gregory Helms, had just written a very scathing blog, and it just kind of inspired me to go ahead and write.
I was up at 3.30 in the morning until about 5am just writing that blog and I don't know if you saw it or not. It was on Ken-Kennedy.com.
Simon: You could tell you were quite angry.
Ken: Yeah, and that got a lot of publicity, negative and otherwise.
I was contacted by Nancy, to go on her show and I was contacted by Dan Abrams as well Greta Van Susteren, which was the one that I did
Simon: Did you not want to go on Nancy's show?
Ken: No, just because I knew it was a forum that, I looked at it as a no-win situation. It was going to be heavily stacked on one side and if you watched when Fit Finlay was on there, I think he said they turned his mic down.
Joel: Yeah, so if he wanted to butt in there would be nothing coming out.
Simon: There are some valid problems though, there are a lot of guys that have died.
Ken: Definitely, I'm not saying that there's no problems.
One of the things is we come off, sometimes, as being very (defensive) - Jim Ross had a word for it, I can't remember it off the top of my head.
But, we do have problems in the wrestling business.
(Actually) I'd say we did have problems, because I honestly, and I'm not just saying this, I don't think we have those problems any more.
And if you look at the list of guys that have passed away, they are all from that era where there was a rock star type of party atmosphere in the business.
Most of the guys that have passed away hadn't been with the WWE for five, six, seven (years), some of them hadn't even stepped in a WWE ring.
Simon: I think it's a general problem in the wrestling industry…
Ken: I don't think it's a problem in the wrestling industry, I think it's a problem in the world.
There's a drug problem throughout the world, there's definitely a drug problem in Hollywood, there's a drug problem in the music industry.
Simon: USA Today did a study and they found that wrestlers are more likely to have a heart attack before 50 - twelve times more likely. So there is (an issue).
Ken: Yeah, but again go back to that list of these so-called lists of wrestlers that have died prematurely and, not to take anything away and say there's nothing to these five deaths, but there were five deaths that happened in the WWE.
Owen Hart, which was an accident. Chris Benoit, which was an apparent suicide. Russ Haas, who had a heart condition that he was born with. Eddie Guererro, who had years and years and years of drug abuse and if you talk to anybody, including himself at the time, if you watch his DVD he says himself he should have been dead a long time ago.
Joel: Well he crashed a car as well, and he was like you know "it left me for dead".
Ken: And the other one was.
Simon: Pillman.
Ken: Brian Pillman. OK, and he had a drug problem, definitely. You know, a lot of these guys that are dying, probably would have had drug problems had they not been in the WWE.
Simon: I look at the guys I grew up loving - British Bulldog was a big hero of mine, Mr Perfect Curt Hennig, Ravishing Rick Rude…
Ken: He (British Bulldog) took so many steroids, he probably took steroids enough for 20 men.
Simon: The painkillers were also a problem.
Ken: Painkillers and drugs.
There was a thing I remember hearing something that, when he (Bulldog) was in WCW, they had brought back the Ultimate Warrior, they didn't tell anybody about it, they had a trap door in the ring.
He took a fall on the hinge and shattered one of his vertebrae and instead of getting taken care of, he just took massive amounts of painkillers.
Joel: Well, I think that's a normal life, though. If I've been out and I've been drinking, and I've got the headache from hell, I'm taking four or five pills. That's the way you look at it.
If you're doing that every day and physically beating up your body…
Ken: One of the things about our business is that we tend to think that we're invincible.
"I can take that stuff and it's not going to affect me."
It's years and years and years of using that stuff and abusing that stuff, that builds up.
Simon: Back in the day, Hulk Hogan famously went on Arsenio Hall and said he didn't take steroids, and all those (era stars) said they never did it, it was only Superstar Billy Graham and that they were all clean.
I spoke to Hogan last week, he now says he did it every day for 16 years.
This is the worry that fans have, we love you guys and don't want to see any more deaths. The worry we have is, people are now saying its clean, but is it?
Ken: Well, here's the deal.
I was on Greta Van Susteran and the guest host asked me "do you take steroids?"
I don't take steroids. I have taken steroids in the past.
I read some Internet reports that people were mad that I said that I didn't take steroids.
Joel: You're being very honest about it, would you not get heat from Vince and stuff?
Ken: Honest to God, Vince said "Be honest. Tell the truth. We don't have anything to hide."
And the thing is, I did take steroids.
I never took a lot of steroids, but when I was working the independent scene I was trying everything I could.
I never took massive amounts of steroids and do you know why I stopped taking them?
Because of the (WWE's) Wellness Policy.
Because they instituted the Wellness Policy and I knew that having a job with the WWE was way more important than the 10 pounds of extra muscle that the steroids gave me.
I stopped taking them and I had the biggest push of my life.
I worked with The Undertaker for the last six, seven months. Working on top of all the house shows. I worked PPVs, I was on every PPV.
I didn't take any steroids and that's the thing, nowadays, in our business, you don't have to take that stuff in order to get a push.
You just don't have to. Guys like, the big guys like Bobby Lashley guys like John Cena.
John Cena, swears up and down and I agree with him, I believe him. He's got no reason to the boys.
Joel: Him and Lance Storm…
Ken: Have never taken an ounce of steroids in their life. He's just got good genetics. If you look at him, he's got, his muscle bellies are so big, he's just a genetic freak, and that's the thing.
We've got thousands upon thousands upon thousands of applicants every year, that apply to have a job as a WWE superstar and Vince picks the best of the litter, he picks the guys that have very good genetics.
Look at Bobby Lashley, look at a picture of him from when he was.
Joel: In the army.
Ken: In the army or whatever, he was a big guy then. He is just bigger now because he changed up his eating and his workouts.
Joel: We're seeing people on the TV - Lex Luger, The Ultimate Warrior, Lanny Poffo for God's sake.
Ken: Guys that were considered to be the biggest jokes inside the industry, in and out of the ring.
Joel: Absolutely, And bearing in mind a lot of these TV shows don't know anything about the business.
Ken: And a lot of the people that watch the shows don't know anything about the business.
They look at it and say "that guys an idiot". I read a transcript of the interview that Lanny Poffo had and it was…
Joel: I swear, you've got to watch it, get it on YouTube, I swear you've got to watch it.
Ken: It was one of the funniest things that I've read. I was comedy, it was like a comedy hour.
Joel: He was the Genius.
Simon: A guy like Marc Mero, his heart does seem to be in the right place. He has wrestled a lot of guys that have died.
Ken: And there's another situation too where I would say, honestly, that if the guy truly cared about changing the business, if I truly felt he cared about changing the business, I would commend that. I would say that's a good thing.
And yeah, definitely, changes could be made in the business to make it better and changes are in the works right now.
The people in (WWE headquarters) Titan Towers right now are trying to figure out ways that they can help us out to live better lives and be healthier and things like that.
But if you look at Marc Mero's history and you look at his past, things point to a very different agenda, and that is that, I think, that Marc Mero wants to have a little more TV time, wants to get into politics, and this is a great, great stepping stone for that and its unfortunate that he's misinformed.
Who does he talk to inside the wrestling business today to get his information?
He's relying on information that he had from nine years ago when he was in the business.
Two years ago it was a completely different business than it is now.
After Eddie died, things changed drastically in the WWE.
That's not to say that things were crazy or that everybody was doing drugs and stuff like that but its definitely changed a lot, the attitude has changed over the past two years, let alone the past five or 10 years.
Marc Mero was in the business nine years ago, and he goes on these talk shows and he says: "I walked away with three years left on my deal, I was so disgusted with everything."
That's a crock, and everybody knows it, because here's the deal.
He had a girlfriend that was very hot, started bringing her to all the wrestling shows, her name was Rena, he got married to her, and people said: "Hey, this girls really hot, we could make her a superstar".
And she became a bigger superstar than he could have ever even imagined and turned him from Marc Mero or Johnny B Badd to carrying Sable's bags in and out of the shows.
They had a falling out, and the reason that he walked away wasn't that he was disgusted with the business, it's because he was disgusted by the fact that he had to look at her every day.
Simon: Just to stand up for Mero, because I interviewed him recently, I put these criticisms to him. He's a millionaire from wrestling.
Ken: OK.
Simon: He's not bitter, he won titles although he wasn't Stone Cold Steve Austin. But the fact is he's wrestled 27 guys that have died.
Ken: OK, and out of the 27 guys that have died. The list is impressive enough, without him having to pad it with guys who died form plane crashes and automobile crashes.
Junkyard Dog died in an automobile accident, Owen Hart died because he fell from a ceiling.
Those are two names that are on that list.
What he's trying to do is he's trying to change the business and say that the business needs to be changed because all these people are dying because of the business, but those people aren't dying because of the business.
Simon: But a lot of the guys on his list, Big Boss Man, Curt Hennig, a lot of the guys we've mentioned (did)…
Ken: Yes, correct.
Simon: Looking at that list, with the majority of the guys there seem to have been drug problems there.
Ken: Right.
I could see it if he were calling up guys and saying: "Hey, man, let me talk to you, let me get a feeling for what it's like nowadays."
But he doesn't.
He just goes: "Oh, back in the day, we used to take Somas all the time, so everybody in the WWE must be taking Somas like candy now."
Joel: It's fine testing the guys for steroids, growth hormone, whatever, do you think it should there should be testing for mental issues there?
If I'm talking to you right now… I was talking to Chris Benoit three months ago, he was one of the loveliest guys I'd ever met in that very short time.
Ken: You could not tell that he'd got problems.
Joel: I could not tell that he'd got mental problems there.
Ken: OK, and neither could anybody else.
Joel: I'm speaking to you right now, and as soon as you leave, it'll be like "Ken Kennedy, what a great guy" but you may have issues.
Do we need to be testing you?
Ken: You know, I think everyone handles stress differently and Chris was one of those guys that internalized everything.
You could see it. Especially after the death of Eddie, you could tell, I could definitely see a difference in Chris and I used to ask him "are you alright, man?"
Because I used to see him and he had that thousand yard stare, he just looked like he wasn't happy, and I remember I used to call him 'Cyborg' because the pain that that man would endure in a workout, or in the ring, was amazing, It was like no human being could do that.
I remember I came on an overseas tour with him one time and he got me into doing squats and he would tell me "yeah, I do 300-500 squats every day" he said "today you're going to do squats with me".
I did 200 and the next day my legs were just fried. He said, "alright, we're going to do some more squats" and I said "I don't know if I can do more squats, man" and he said: "I'm telling you man, you just push through, mentally, you can do it, you can do it. Just tell yourself you can do it."
So I ended up doing 300 squats that day.
The next day he said "we're going to do more squats" and I'm like "Oh my God", so we ended up doing 400 and the next day I did 500 squats.
By the time I did 500 squats my legs actually started feeling better.
He was that type of guy.
I tell you, when he came back, from having that time off, because took like maybe six months off, just because of the burnout of everything, he had lost three close friends.
That was something he never talked about, and everybody knew that he had lost Eddie, but nobody had known about the other two guys that he had lost.
When he came back, I could just see a difference in his attitude.
He wouldn't stay out at night with the guys if we were overseas. He would go up to his room.
Normally he was the one that would be down there, leading all the guys until five or six o'clock in the morning and then get up at ten o'clock and be ready to train.
Joel: Do some more squats.
Ken: Yeah, do some more squats and stuff. He had changed and I could see it. I used to ask him "man, are you ok?" and he'd be "yeah, I'm fine."
Joel: Met the guy a few times, it really shook me up mentally, because not only was he in my top five wrestlers of all time, he was such a nice man, and every single person who you have seen on TV or the radio has said exactly the same thing.
And you never know exactly what's inside there. That was my point.
It's great testing for steroids and whatever, but was it the mental thing?
Ken: I think everybody would like to wrap it up in a nice little ball and say 'this is what it was' but I think there are so many different things that factor in the reason why he did what he did that we'll never know.
Did it have something to do with wrestling? Probably.
But it had a lot to do with other things too.
I remember one of the things, I remember having a conversation with him, right before WrestleMania 22 in Chicago, we went to have a workout, and we were driving, and he kind of opened up to me a little bit, he asked me some stuff, and I remember him asking me "do you take recreational drugs?" and I said "no, I don't do anything".
I said "do you?" and he said "yeah, from time to time".
So I said what are you going to do with this Wellness Policy, and he's like: "I don't know, I'm going to have a hard time with it."
I remember also having him say to me: "I'm going to have to work the rest of my life because of my lazy, 'expletive-deleted' of an ex-wife took everything from me, and I'm going to have to work the rest of my life."
I know that was a huge, huge issue with him.
Joel: He'd worked so hard all his life anyway and he's 40.
Ken: Right, he'd worked his ass off.
Simon: Just one question on the Wellness Policy, to go back to this, but with Benoit, he was beating it somehow, either with dodgy prescriptions or somehow it seems, because we know his doctor was prescribing him ten months of steroids every three to four weeks.
Ken: And when he came back, I could tell he was off of everything and just talking to him, he wouldn't even take ephedrine, he hadn't taken any ephedrine, and I don't know he had let that go and gone clean for so long and then just decided to take stuff again.
I'm going to assume that's what happened because we have our Wellness Policy in place, and as much as everybody wants to say its just a 'wink, wink, nod, nod' type of policy they stand and watch you…
Joel: Take a piss.
Ken: Yeah. I got drug tested last week, they just sit there and watch you do it.
Simon: There is this thing (loophole) where you (can) have a prescription for hormone replacement, would you like to see that tightened up?
Ken: You know what, I think that there is a, for some people, in some instances, a reason for it.
If you do any research on steroids, steroids are actually good for you, in very small doses.
It's just that people say: "Well if I take this little tiny amount then it does this for me, what would happen if I took 10 times that amount?'
And you obviously know what happens when people take large quantities.
Joel: I'm like that with drink, you know, I'm being serious, if I'm really open about it, watching the Eddie Guererro DVD the other night, I'm like that, if I have one drink, I want two drinks, I want three drinks…
Ken: You want 10.
Joel: I like that feeling and it's like how much more can I have. I've got quite an addictive personality, so it's a little bit like that.
Ken: I believe that we do have guys on our roster who are ageing and, in small doses, testosterone replacement is sometimes necessary.
But the massive amounts that doctor was prescribing that's ridiculous and that doctor is basically a glorified drug dealer.
Things like that need to go away.
But if a guy's taking a little bit of testosterone, if he's prescribed a healthy dose, and he takes that, I don't see any problems with that.
Our drug policy can be compared to the NFL's drug policy.
There's a 4:1 testosterone to epitestosterone level, and anything higher than a 4:1 you get red flagged.
If you can produce a reason why your testosterone levels are higher than 4:1 then they will let it slide.
But the thing is that we're not a competitive sport.
In most cases where guys are taking stuff, there is a legitimate medical reason, and that is why people say 'you can have up to a 10:1 ratio' which is a bunch of garbage, because anything higher than a 4:1, you get flagged, and you better have a damned good reason why your levels are higher than 4:1.
I'll tell you, Dr. David Black came in - the guy that runs the policy, that instituted our drug policy, and instituted the NFL's drug policy - came in, we all had a sit down, pow-wowed with him for probably two hours, anybody had any questions we bounced them off of him, and he said that he has actually run into people who have had a natural level of testosterone that was like 8:1, naturally without taking any kind of supplements.
Everybody's testosterone levels are different, and some guys just naturally produce a lot more testosterone than others.
So, are you going to say, this guys tests 8:1 because he's a genetic freak, so you're obviously taking steroids, so things like that, we have to have that in place.
Because, again, we are not a competitive sport, so to speak, you're not going to get an edge, you're not going to win a match because you're taking testosterone or whatever.
Joel: You talk intelligently, and I think that's why you're the right guy to go on the TV, you wanted to go on the radio and actually explain it to me in layman terms, about this is how it works, so cheers for that. Thank you.
Ken: We have a zero tolerance policy. In fact I know of a guy, I'm not going to name his name, but I know a guy, a friend of mine, who was taking an over-the-counter supplement from GNC.
It was like a testosterone enhancer or whatever. I've taken stuff like that before and I've thought 'this is just garbage, it doesn't work'.
Well he took that stuff, and he got tested, and he actually tested positive for his testosterone levels were elevated, and they said "what are you taking?" and he said "I'm taking this" and they said "nope, you can't take that, that's on the banned list you're not allowed to take this".
Joel: But you can buy it over the counter.
Simon: The banned list is very long. I've seen it, it's a very long list.
Ken: Stuff like that, to me, is ridiculous because…
Here's the problem with the drug policy, you know this from every walk of life, that the people who have problems, who are abusers of drugs, will find ways, will find loopholes, no matter what.
They will always figure out how they can get away with taking drugs.
Some of them will even go as far as getting fired for taking drugs just because it's so important to them, they can't stop.
If I'm working a match, in, say France, and I take a bad fall and I hurt my back very badly and I'm in a lot of pain and I don't have a prescription, so to speak, and there isn't a doctor on staff, I can't go to my buddy, who I know has a prescription of Vicodin and say: "Man, can I get a pill or two so I can make it through the night, so I can sleep?"
I can't do it, because if I happen to get tested, then I will test positive for that and I will be suspended for 30 days, or 60 days.
Stuff like that, there's just no tolerance at all if you have one Vicodin in your system, and you don't have a prescription for it, you're suspended - period, point blank.
You know, they always say that one bad apple spoils the whole damn bunch, and that's the truth, it really is because there's guys out there who don't abuse, who can use stuff occasionally, and they're the ones that are getting punished because of these guys who have to take stuff for you, for you, for me, for everybody else.
They take the required amount for 10 men.